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Cynan
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PostSubject: lions costuming themes   Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:21 pm





these two are basic early medievel noble costumes



german from the 1000's



from vienna 1100-1200



south german later medieval but borderline, 1300-1350





woman's cotbardie? 1200's i assure you it looks better in real life, worn over an undertunic



early period welsh picture of a lord, ote the heavy roman infulence.

for a site dedicated to making costumes and tunics teh beginning looks usefull, plu sit has pictures

http://www.virtue.to/articles/in_depth_garb.html

http://www.virtue.to/articles/tunic_worksheet.html

more links to pictures

http://www.marquise.de/en/1300/pics/man_3.shtml

http://www.marquise.de/en/1300/pics/man_5.shtml

http://www.marquise.de/en/1300/pics/man_7.shtml

here's a great one where people are wearing ARMOUR!

http://www.marquise.de/en/1300/pics/man_9.shtml
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Cynan
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PostSubject: more stuff   Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:46 pm

I have to say that i do not endorse teh use of tights in this picture :-) it's really more of a later period picture but i thought teh tunic was a good example.



as you can see most (early) medieval clothing was long and draping, with knee length tunics for active wear and longer tunics for formal and winter wear... as general rules depending on time and place.

you'll see alot of wrapped cloaks / kilts / togas...



all o fthese pictures are for 1100 - 1300 clothing


Last edited by on Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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Cynan
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PostSubject: Re: lions costuming themes   Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:01 am

normen women

http://freespace.virgin.net/sarah.doyle/KIT.HTM
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Cynan
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PostSubject: why all these posts on clothing?   Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:34 am

I guess I wanted to give you guys some visual feedback of what sir Mathiew and i are tlaking about early period dress.

All of this started when someone brought up the question of the look we are going for, I don't know who it was....

My short answer is belted Tunics. Either knee length or lowwer ones. Short sleeved or long. Tunics like you see sir mathiew wear, tunics like my red or my dark blue one. with or without the long white undertunics i spmetime wear underneath. tunics are farly easy to make, and are layerable. They reflect a variety of cultures from greek/roman/celtic times all the way to the late middle ages.

Unfortunetly there is a lot more information out there about rennaisance dress than medievel dress. There is also more about late medieval dress than early medieval dress. The only really early picture i got was the one of king hywel of wales in the first post, from the 6th or 8th century...

In many ways we are still in the process of sorting out what our look will really be. Though we do know a few things: nothing too late period. Our men don't wear tights (we wear dresses) and out women don't need to wear corsets to turn heads! We don't wear puffy sleeves, or pantaloons, we don't wear tricorn hats or laces ruffs around our necks.

great accessories are cloaks of all shapes and sizes, togas or kilts that can be pinned and hung around the shoulder, capes, furs (of course), head wraps, leg wraps.

anyway that's my vision, i invite others to comment, question or suggest their own visions.
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Cynan
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PostSubject: more on tunics   Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:43 am

I just though I'd put in a note on tinics with slits.

slits on the front and back were a style used often by horsemen (and women) / cavalry / knights and nobels.

slits on the sides were more of your lowwer class foot soldoer's style, though I have some old SCA tunics with side slits (from before I was a nobel in the SCA), you'll notice that most of my newwr ones either don't have slits at all or have slits only in front or back.

As an order of knights, i'd suggest if we have slits we try to avoid side slits, even if you are a man at arms for now, if you run with the lions you're effectively cavalry :-)

What do you guys think.


I'll tak ethe time to note that I'm just throwing out ideas, and regardless of what we decide on for our future "look" we're not going to stop using our old garb. I'm just trying to create a path for the future in the long term...
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Sir Mathew
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PostSubject: Re: lions costuming themes   Wed May 21, 2008 7:36 pm

Not all of our characters come from noble families, thus not all of us would have had the privilege of our characters possessing a family coat of arms.

This is not to say your character can not have a coat of arms or be part of a noble linage. That part is fine, However Me and Cynan have agreed that characters who have noble linage or who may be in another guild and wish to join the lions must yield that privilege until becoming a knight in the Lions.

Thus, for example, if a former baron, duke, or even a king was to join the ranks of the lions the candidate would be treated no different then any other man at arms. (assuming he or she make it past the introduction test)

Personalizing your shield is a privilege that a Lion knight earns. It is a honor that a knight can be distinct on the battle field through the trials they have faced.

Personalizing your early medieval garb with a lions motif is fine but is by no means mandatory.

I would however like to here Cynan's thoughts on this.
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PostSubject: Re: lions costuming themes   Tue May 27, 2008 11:03 am

Concerning uniformity of costumes, I think we should all aim for an early medieval style and garbs. Most of us already have that style, those who don't simply don't have the armour yet.

I've always pictured our style much like Robert De Bruce , the scotish would-be king in Braveheart (that looks suspiciously like Matthew hahaha). Early-mid medieval age, bassinet or open face helmets, with a little plate but not that much, since full plate is more 1400 era. I guess breast plates would be okay.

Leg and arm plate should be kept simple, that is to say not too much articulations, since those armour technologies where developped in early 1450-1500.

Unless I am grossly mistaken, watch Braveheart and you will pretty much have what style the Lions are aiming for. Please correct me if I am wrong.

As for the shield personalization, I will be preaching for my county here (since I already painted the whole thing) but I personally thought that we wanted to be a little more rag-tag than the other guilds, with the Lion's symbol on our garbs. It's been maybe two years ago, but I've heard one of you commanders say that we were aiming for the look of a band of Knights together and not an Empire style army. Knights, traditionally, have their own crests embeded on their shields and the symbol of the kingdom, barony or whatever they are affiliated with.

That's why miedieval battlefields where so colored.

My two cents here, waiting for comments :-)

_________________
`"La prière n'est rien sans sacrifices
Le sacrifice n'est rien sans la foi
La foi n'est rien si elle attend une récompense
La récompense de la foi sont la prière et le sacrifice"

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Sire Jean le Pieux, chevalier de l'Ordre du Lion, Inquisiteur du Saint-Siège et Mashal de Glennshire

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sire olivius
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PostSubject: Re: lions costuming themes   Tue May 27, 2008 11:52 am

Well...I agree man, thats all lol!

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Cynan
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PostSubject: Lion sheilds   Tue May 27, 2008 6:34 pm

Ok, I've talked to sir Mathiew about it just now.

We did come to a decision.

we decided that uniformity is most important. Still some elementsof individuality will be allowed.

we want it to be obvious that we are lions and we don't want to detract, from our recogniablity. However small elaborations are to be permitted.

We decided to do away with the double standard, everyone has the same rights to paint heilds.

ground rules:

1) every lion's sheild should be black and white, monochromatic.

2) the largest and most prominent charge on the sheild must be a white lion on a black background.

so you could add a white laurel wreath under your lion (afte consulting with us and getting it approved and offically made your mark)

you can also wear a family surcoat or tabard or favour if you are usign a lion's sheild

we understand that some variations will occur, celtic lions, extra lions, upside down lions, etc... these have always happened, they will continue to happen.

doesseveyone understand?

let me know

Peter
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Cynan
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PostSubject: Re: lions costuming themes   Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:01 am

I'm putting a short summary of what i'm seeing as the emerging dress style of the lions right here:

ideal helmet:#1 norman helm liek hector, lycas, Jean the faithfull, etc... lots of us have it, great look. #2 something similar with a open face, with or without cheek plates. #3 chain coif #4 hardened leather helmet

armour: chainmaile, leather with small plates (brigandine), or with long narrow peices of metal (splint), leather with discs, studs, or rings, hardened leather, tough leather. Scale (or lamelar) is also good. A mixture of the above is good too.

clothing: tunic long enough so you wouldn'rt need to wear pants to be decent. Long flowwing garb without buttons. Pants that are worrn should be low profile, drab, ideal awesomeness would be no pnats at all but just tunics and maybe leg wrappings... but that's ambitious! Cloaks and capes are good accessories.

I don't know what to say about hats...


Last edited by Cynan on Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:17 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: reponce to bravegeart   Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:11 am

Ii missed this braveheart post!

Braveheart is ok as far as period goes but it is the later extereme of acceptable and should not be the ideal thing we aim for. It is NOT earky medieval in my opinion. I'd call it late medieval more likely.

The shoulder armour I have is really too late period to preperly be called proper lions armour. I know I'm not setting a good example I just needed soem armour, bought the best thing i could find on ebay (they were all essentailly teh same) and have selayed replacing it. I'm planning on replacing it with brigandine shoulders actually. Which I will make myself.

I like the fact that most of the lions have open faced norman helms or similair. This sort of thing was probably gone by the mid 1200's in favor of the great helm. I'm not sure though on that. If I'm not mistaken bravheart is set arounf 1300 oe in the 1300's right?

By early middle ages I'm normally takling about the dark ages, (which academicly in english) is between the fall of the roman empire (around 400AD) to the high middle ages (maybe around 1000 AD)

I'd charcterise the high middle ages as the golden age of the knight, tourmanents were very important, toubaors began the romatic image of the knight, the church made knighthings a cerimony with religous overtones and there were oaths relating to good condct, not just to serve a lord....

The 100 years war around mid 1200's, or 13th centruy with the emergence of the longbow and crossbow as deciding factors in battles to me spells the begining of the end of the middle ages and therefore the begainning of the late middle ages. Also it was a time where nationalusm began to replace feudalism. Peasents became targets in warfare more than before, as kings waged economic war against each other by burning villages and farms to undermine the stability of their lords, Kimgs emerged as more powerfull, and they relied on standing armies of solders rather then independant knights. solders were recruited from villages as taught to use crossbows that could peirce the armour of a knight, and everything went into a period of transition.

it was shift awy from a warrior culture to a more civilized culture where war was waged by paid soldiers loyal to the king and soon country...

umm.. I'm digresing, but my point is this: the time braveheart was set in is not what I'm taking about when i say the early middle ages.

the bacinet helmet in my mind normally has a visor that comes down. Visors are LATE period!

we don't exactly have one time frame what all of our helms conexist in. Brand has a greek styled helmet which is earlier than most of us. Sir mathiew has a great helm which is later than most of us. I have a fantasy helemt so it never existed beside any of them... and that's ok.It is a fantasy world and we know that all these jelemst do exist in this world so it's fine. But I have to say that the emerging theme I've seen is norman helmets. And norman helemts as I've seen seem to date us around 1000 - 1100 AD. I would say taht the armourers of lions hold lnow how to make norman helemsts best :-)

Which is good,let's emrace it and go with it! Brave heart things are good, greek things are good, as are norse, germanic, celtic, roman etc... gondorian, rohirim and noldorian from lord of the rings are also acceptabe, however... i have to say that I like the fact that we have begun to emerge with a more specific theme, a look, and that is basicly norman. Which fits very well with most of our allies.

So i'm encouraging norman helemts. That fits well with chainmaile, lamelar, brigandine, courbouli, etc...

I'm also encouraging more long tunics. I still see a lot of you guys walking around with tunics so short that you'd blush if we took your pants away. A tunic from this period should be long enough to be worn without pants since they didn't use pant, not did they use tights....
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Sir Mathew
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PostSubject: Re: lions costuming themes   Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:16 am

More examples of the Early Medieval knight.



http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/888/4professionalwarriorkt0.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/philipdavis/Images/sergaent.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/philipdavis/Images/knight.jpg

http://www.fortidensjelling.dk/viking4.jpg

http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/Saxon-Kelmarsh06.jpg

http://www.westmearc.org/images/dorian.jpg


More Examples of Early Medieval Ladys costume

http://www.celtic-gallery.com/larp81.jpg

http://camelot-treasures.com/aenor/bonnie.jpg

http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/Kenilworth-NormanLife2006/NormanLady2.jpg

http://www.garbtheworld.com/images/temp/Viking2.jpg

http://www.vikingtoday.com/events/billeder/foteviken-20040620-p1010047.jpg

http://www.ulfrun.nl/images/rona-bio2.jpg

http://www.mittelalterkostueme.de/Neue_Dateien/bilder/karolinger4.jpg


More Examples of Early Medieval men Costume

http://www.daysofknights.com.au/Images/Peasant01.jpg

http://www.mittelalterkostueme.de/Neue_Dateien/bilder/Tunikaweit1.jpg

http://seegras.discordia.ch/About/Pixels/Viking.jpg

http://www.badarchaeology.net/images/viking.jpg

http://www.ulfrun.nl/images/keeshu-bio.jpg

http://www.romanarmy.net/images/Pages/Misc/Batwear2.jpg


Last edited by Sir Mathew on Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:55 pm; edited 6 times in total
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Guibourg
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PostSubject: Re: lions costuming themes   Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:26 am

Greetings, Lions !

Here's a website I found which might be helpful for costume ideas. It has tons of pictures and even some sewing instructions. These folks are extremely historically-accurate, probably a lot more than what we need. Since we're medieval/fantastic, I guess it's a matter of give-and-take.

http://www.regia.ca/

Hey, come to think of it, they're based in Ontario. Who knows, maybe we could go and check'em out some time in the future, if they set something up nearby ?

Paul
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Cynan
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PostSubject: Re: lions costuming themes   Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:17 pm

interesting site, after a breif look around I saw lots of pictures and even the rules they play by for simulating combat, along with articles on dying and making tents. What i didn't see was instructions on sewwing garb. Could you point me int eh right direction for that?

Anyway thanks for contirbuting!
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PostSubject: Re: lions costuming themes   Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:59 pm

Certainly, it's under "Articles", "Conquest Era Clothing".
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PostSubject: Re: lions costuming themes   Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:40 pm

I have found a web site very simple (in french) wich is explaining how to make many costumes parts, mostly medievals. The good point of that site is that is a "for dummies" web site. Also, it explained how to make the only pattern you can need. And every parts explained on the site can be modifiedvery easily to fit with any era! And, at last, the explanations are really funny and clear.

The only point is that the site is in french, but most of the sewers can easily read french, so I suppose it could be a plus too ^^

The web site: http://easyfaeriecostumes.free.fr/
Pictures gallery of the webmastress: http://feearmor.ifrance.com/

(the web site title is in english but the content is in french)
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Cynan
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PostSubject: Re: lions costuming themes   Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:26 pm

Great, thanks for contiributing this resource!

i looked at some of the pictures, everything under the robes section is good for female medieval clothing many coudl be worn for a man as well. Everything under tunics is good as well.

Of course the chemises and bodices are kinda late period as far as I understand.

I thought the first skirt would be an interesting it kinda had a primitive feel to it.... I don't know... It coudl be intergrated into the bottom for a medevail dress, or coming out under a short tunic maybe... on the other hand the colours made it look like a helquin skirt :-)
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PostSubject: Re: lions costuming themes   Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:36 pm

We discussed the costuming for our female Lions at last Winters Court and i would like to introduce the idea of some of our ladys haveing a "cotehardie"

Cotehardies have bin worn from the early to late medieval periods and there styals vary greatly from each period, personaly i think thay look great and would like to share some examples of what i found.

http://www.fashionsintime.com/html/cotehardie.html

http://www.scottish-wedding-dreams.com/images/1300-cotehardie-lancelot-de-lac-RevivalClothing.jpg

http://www.revivalclothing.com/ProductImages/Cotehardie_gown_Blue_hood.jpg

http://www.foliateface.ca/showdbpict.php?which=image&id=80

http://www.merouda.com/asheraldry/as3_files/image006.jpg

http://www.fashionsintime.com/html/mrb1close.jpg

Hear is a web page with the patter on how to make one.

http://www.damehelen.com/cotes/patterns.html
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